TZOF poster's thoughts on the new Omega Speedmaster ‘Broad Arrow’

Presented by Chuck Maddox

Presented on 7 December 2001, 14:50 GMT

 

Recently in the Omega Forum there has been a great deal of interest in the new Speedmaster Broad Arrow Automatic Chronometer... Several recent conversations on the topic have been so informative that I couldn't let them be lost. They are presented here to serve as a potential pointable summary of these useful postings.

 

 Recent high end Speedies...

Posted By: Jeff Huber (Virginia)
Date: 11/27/1 - 20:24:46

 

Am I the only one who wonders what the BFD over the BA is when the White Gold Bezel moon phase is still out there? And what about that white gold version of same?

Jeff

 

 Re: Recent high end Speedies...

Posted By: Timothy
Date: 11/27/1 - 21:05:47

In Response To: Recent high end Speedies... (Jeff Huber (Virginia))

I guess the Broadarrow is just the new kid on the block right now.  

 

  We'll see how it all falls out...

Posted By: Jeff Huber (Virginia)

Date: 11/27/1 - 22:07:29

Like Chuck M., I'm a little skeptical of Omega's "high end" strategy. Would have been fine if the US economy had kept growing, but that wasn't going to last (They're now saying we've been in a recession since last March. Funny how long it takes to figure those things out).

 

When you get right down to it, I put on my standard line Speedy Pro and wonder why I'd want someting at several times the price that's just my Speedy Pro with an extra coat or two of shine.

 

Jeff

 

It would appear that this all part of Omega's plan...>

Posted By: Another Don
Date: 11/27/1 - 21:11:12

In Response To: Recent high end Speedies... (Jeff Huber (Virginia))

 

...to increase the average price/watch. Those Speedy's plus the introduction of the Co-Ax De Villes would seem to point to higher price watches.

As far as the moonphase watches are concerned, I have one of the cheap ones (MSRP=$5,000 and apparently not real popular) and the 18kt version has an MSRP=$12,000. I just don't think that 5 digit Omegas are flying off the shelf. In fact a well regarded European seller has been listing the 18kt Moonphase on your favorite auction site repeatedly with a "Buy it now" price of $5,400 with zero takers. That's like 45% of MSRP. Heck of a bargain. But $5,400 is a lot of money for a watch. There are a lot of watches that can be had for that kind of cash.

 

Just another pretty face....>

Posted By: Bubba - Peoples Republic of Massachusetts
Date: 11/27/1 - 21:18:43

In Response To: It would appear that this all part of Omega's plan...> (Another Don)

 

I was set to order one in white but decided not to at the last minute. Don is correct, so many watches, so little time.

Bubba

 

I am still a dead head on. . .

Posted By: 505x
Date: 11/27/1 - 23:01:31

In Response To: Recent high end Speedies... (Jeff Huber (Virginia))

white gold or even platinum watch cases. To everyone except less than .1 percent of the population, they see a steel case there, not gold. If I opt for a gold case, it will yellow or a rose gold version.

Just MHO.

 

The BA's MOVEMENT is a BBBFD>

Posted By: David (Chicago)
Date: 11/28/1 - 01:28:19

In Response To: Recent high end Speedies... (Jeff Huber (Virginia))

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the broad arrow hands, which we've seen on the '57 Replica (which looks a whole lot like the new Broad Arrow)and the WG bezel SS moon phase Moon Watch.

But the Broad Arrow is a Big Deal and the Big Deal is the new movement. New chronograph movements don't come along every day, especially classical column-wheel controlled chronographs.

Until Rolex developed its new in-house chronograph movement for the Daytona, the last all-new automatic chronograph movement to be developed was the Lemania Cal. 1351, which appeared in 1994 and animates chronographs from Breguet, Ebel and Rainer Brand. (There is a Lemania Cal. 5195 which is also new, but it appears that that movement is a derivation of the venerable Cal. 5100).

The last column-wheel controlled chronograph was the Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185, the world's smallest integrated chronograph movement, which was originally developed exclusively for Blancpain in 1988 but has since appeared in chronographs by Audemars Piguet, Breguet, Breitling, Cartier, Chaumet, Chopard, Franck Muller, Piaget, Alain Silberstein, and Vacheron Constantin.

The new Omega Cal. 3033 is a completely new highly sophisticated chronometer-rated chronograph movement with "classical" column-wheel control, developed exclusively by Omega and Frederic Piguet... The technology of the Cal. 1185 may have informed the design of the Omega Cal. 3033, but the Cal. 1185 is clearly not the base movement for the new Omega chronograph. The dimensions are significantly different, the Omega Cal. 3033 is larger in both diameter and thickness, it is a higher-beat movement (28,800 vs. 21,600 bph) and the constant seconds subdial and 12-hour register are transposed. In fact, except for the column wheel, it is more like the Lemania Cal. 1351 than it is like the F. Piguet Cal. 1185., it is a higher-beat movement (28,800 vs. 21,600 bph) and the constant seconds subdial and 12-hour register are transposed which indicates a different construction. In fact, except for the fact that the Omega Cal. 3033's chronograph function is controlled in the "classic" manner, by a column wheel rather than cams, it is closer to the Lemania Cal. 1351 in size, oscillation rate and layout than it is to the Frederic Piguet Caliber 1185.

Some history, FWIW: Until the recent appearance of both the Rolex Cal. 4130 and the Omega Cal. 3033 within the past year, the last new chronograph movement to be introduced was the Lemania Cal. 1351, which arrived in 1994 (and which currently animates chronographs from Breguet, Ebel and Rainer Brand).

The last new COLUMN-WHEEL controlled chronograph until now, however, was the Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185 that is the precursor to the new Omega Cal. 3033. It was originally developed exclusively for Blancpain in 1988 and was purposely designed to be the world's smallest integrated automatic chronograph movement (it fits the Blancpain 2100 Sport Women's Chronograph and the Breguet Type XX Dame). No longer exclusive to Blancpain, it can be found in chronographs by Audemars Piguet, Breguet, Breitling, Cartier, Chaumet, Chopard, Franck Muller, Piaget, Alain Silberstein, and Vacheron Constantin, some of which are considerably more expensive than the Blancpain Flyback, let alone the Omega Broad Arrow.

So far, the only test of the Omega Cal. 3033 I've seen (in Watch Time) suggests that it is one of the greatest and most accurate chronograph movements ever produced.

Another bonus that the Broad Arrow offers, according to the article in Watch Time, is that the chronograph pushers are designed to be activated under water like those on the Seamaster Professional 300 Chronograph.

Time will tell if the new movement attains the legendary status of the Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185 or the Zenith El Primero (also a column-wheel controlled chronograph movement,and slimmer than the Omega Cal. 3033). Nonetheless, early indications are that it is terrific value for the money, like most Omegas have been over the years.

 

You're right. It IS a big deal. nt

Posted By: Jeff Huber (Virginia)
Date: 11/28/1 - 08:25:29

In Response To: The BA's MOVEMENT is a BBBFD> (David (Chicago))

nt

 

Well said. (nt)

Posted By: RogerP
Date: 11/28/1 - 08:36:39

In Response To: The BA's MOVEMENT is a BBBFD> (David (Chicago))

nt

 

The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared

Posted By: Boyce
Date: 12/2/1 - 18:26:44

to other Omega watches.

Omega is well known for its "value for money" since 1841. Recently I feel that their prices are climbing up and it is now close to Rolex price.

Is Omega still a "value for money" watch ?

 

Re: The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared

Posted By: Dale <daleg@aikenelectric.net>
Date: 12/2/1 - 19:05:42

In Response To: The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared (Boyce)

 

Boyce, The BA is setting a new standard at Omega. When you take into account discounts I think this watch in one of the best value for $$ on the market today. When you consider a new SS Daytona will run about $9k if you want it today the BA can be had for under $2500 if you look around. Send me an e-mail and I will tell you who I got mine from. Dale

 

 

Re: The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared

Posted By: Mark Silverstein (Edison, New Jersey)
Date: 12/2/1 - 20:16:19

In Response To: The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared (Boyce)

 

When you consider that this is a manufacture movement, the price isn't that bad and on top of that it appears to be available with discounts.

 

Other than Rolex and a few others, it appears that chronos with less than stratospheric prices tend to contain modified (or unmodified) ETA 7750 or Lemania 5100 movements. They are, of course, excellent units but lack uniqueness.

For a new high quality, manufacture, chronograph chronometer, the list price is very reasonable. With the discounts which appear to be available, the watch may well be a bargain.

 

 

All new movement, still a great value>>>

Posted By: David (Chicago) <dagreenspan@msn.com>
Date: 12/3/1 - 03:03:33

In Response To: The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared (Boyce)

Personally, I'm not a big fan of the broad arrow hands, which we've seen on the '57 Replica (which looks a whole lot like the new Broad Arrow)and the WG bezel SS moon phase Moon Watch. But the Broad Arrow is a Big Deal and the Big Deal is the new movement. New chronograph movements don't come along every day, especially classical column-wheel controlled chronographs.

Until Rolex developed its new in-house chronograph movement for the Daytona, the last all-new automatic chronograph movement to be developed was the Lemania Cal. 1351, which appeared in 1994 and animates chronographs from Breguet, Ebel and Rainer Brand. (There is a Lemania Cal. 5195 which is also new, but it appears that that movement is a derivation of the venerable Cal. 5100).

The last column-wheel controlled chronograph was the Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185, the world's smallest integrated chronograph movement, which was originally developed exclusively for Blancpain in 1988 but has since appeared in chronographs by Audemars Piguet, Breguet, Breitling, Cartier, Chaumet, Chopard, Franck Muller, Piaget, Alain Silberstein, and Vacheron Constantin.

The new Omega Cal. 3033 is a completely new highly sophisticated chronometer-rated chronograph movement with "classical" column-wheel control, developed exclusively by Omega and Frederic Piguet... The technology of the Cal. 1185 may have informed the design of the Omega Cal. 3033, but the Cal. 1185 is clearly not the base movement for the new Omega chronograph. The dimensions are significantly different, the Omega Cal. 3033 is larger in both diameter and thickness, it is a higher-beat movement (28,800 vs. 21,600 bph) and the constant seconds subdial and 12-hour register are transposed. In fact, except for the column wheel, it is more like the Lemania Cal. 1351 than it is like the F. Piguet Cal. 1185., it is a higher-beat movement (28,800 vs. 21,600 bph) and the constant seconds subdial and 12-hour register are transposed which indicates a different construction. In fact, except for the fact that the Omega Cal. 3033's chronograph function is controlled in the "classic" manner, by a column wheel rather than cams, it is closer to the Lemania Cal. 1351 in size, oscillation rate and layout than it is to the Frederic Piguet Caliber 1185.

Some history, FWIW: Until the recent appearance of both the Rolex Cal. 4130 and the Omega Cal. 3033 within the past year, the last new chronograph movement to be introduced was the Lemania Cal. 1351, which arrived in 1994 (and which currently animates chronographs from Breguet, Ebel and Rainer Brand).

The last new COLUMN-WHEEL controlled chronograph until now, however, was the Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185 that is the precursor to the new Omega Cal. 3033. It was originally developed exclusively for Blancpain in 1988 and was purposely designed to be the world's smallest integrated automatic chronograph movement (it fits the Blancpain 2100 Sport Women's Chronograph and the Breguet Type XX Dame). No longer exclusive to Blancpain, it can be found in chronographs by Audemars Piguet, Breguet, Breitling, Cartier, Chaumet, Chopard, Franck Muller, Piaget, Alain Silberstein, and Vacheron Constantin, some of which are considerably more expensive than the Blancpain Flyback, let alone the Omega Broad Arrow.

So far, the only test of the Omega Cal. 3033 I've seen (in Watch Time) suggests that it is one of the greatest and most accurate chronograph movements ever produced.

Another bonus that the Broad Arrow offers, according to the article in Watch Time, is that the chronograph pushers are designed to be activated under water like those on the Seamaster Professional 300 Chronograph.

Time will tell if the new movement attains the legendary status of the Frederic Piguet Cal. 1185 or the Zenith El Primero (also a column-wheel controlled chronograph movement,and slimmer than the Omega Cal. 3033). Nonetheless, early indications are that it is terrific value for the money, like most Omegas have been over the years.

Re: The Broad Arrow If you pay around $2200-2300 NIB...>

Posted By: Bubba - MASSACHUSETTS

Date: 12/3/1 - 05:05:44

In Response To: The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared (Boyce)

 

which is a price that they can be had for this week, with serial numbers intact and warranty card stamped, you should not have high exposure to depressiation should you wish to sell it later in good condition. They are selling Mint for around 2K on SC.

 

Only time will tell if it will maintain resale value like the Rolex products have. The moral of the story is "if they are easy to get discounted new, they will not maintain resale in the same way thatnew non discounted products do."

 

New Rolexes at 10% off depending on model, are available. When was the last time you saw an authorized dealer give 35% off a popular Rolex model? Rolex controls the new market, and raises prices on a regular basis. This in tern increases the prices on the used Rolex market. Bubba's dribble down theory on used Rolex Watches -"Buy them right used, and sell them the same way..." I have never lost money on a Rolex, and I have never purchased one new. Let someone else take the hit if they want it new. The minute it leaves the shop it is used.

 

Hope this helps you out.

 

Bubba

Re: The Broad Arrow retail quite high as compared

Increase on Omegaprices are still far below Rolex in % and in $$ :)

Regards

Nick

Boyce, you raise a good question...>

I have wondered the same thing myself.

It seems as if there is a marketing split going on at Omega with some of the newer models priced at a level that seems shocking, for an Omega.

The interesting offset to this is that it also seems to have the efect of making obvious the great value, price-wise, of many of the existing models.

Where will this lead?

Is Omega planning to pull the entire line upscale price-wise? Are we at the tail end of the bargain-priced Omega's?

Interesting times, anyway, huh?

I've been quite vocal on this trend in the past... >

I've been quite vocal on this trend in the past... I am not really sure where Omega is heading with their product line and why.

It used to be that Omega was the "quality/value" bargain of the swiss watch industry. Perhaps they still are... Even though they didn't use their own base movements, with a very few exceptions like the Speedmaster Professional X-33, the Tourbillions, etc., the attention to detail and the tuning and finishing that Omega performed on their chosen base movements were exceedly rarely equaled (usually only by the likes of IWC)... So while your Seamaster Professional Chronometer Chronograph may have it's heart a Valjoux/ETA 7750, it was the most finely tuned and highest finished 7750 that has seen the light of day. All at a price cheaper in Titanium than a Rolex Submariner in Stainless which isn't even a chronograph.

It used to be in the good old days of 1999 or early 2000 that if you wanted a watch the equal or better of a Rolex Daytona but only wanted to pay half as much, wanted to have your choice of dial color and didn't want to wait a couple of years you went to Omega and Zenith and were easily accomodated with the SeMPC and/or the El-Primero respectively... But the watch industry has changed. It used to be that Zenith was not readily available in the US, Zenith was an independent manufacturer. At the time LVMH was having difficulties obtaining Lemania movements for incorporation in it's Carrera Re-Issue model. So LVMH bought Zenith and put them in the fold to supply ebauches as necessary for watches under it's umbrella. Also LVMH has brought Zenith to the US with Rolex as it's targeted competitor (read large price jump)... Since Zenith used to supply ebauches to Rolex, that is their percieved position on the swiss watch totem pole... With Zenith ebauches in certain newer TAG-Heuer products, the percieved positioning of T-H monvements, which was generally considered below Omega, has risen to at least equal if not above Omega in general perception... At least in those models which use the new No. 36 Zenith ebauche...

So it appears that Omega is following the trend and chasing Zenith in an attempt to cut into Rolex's customer base. Also fear of potentially being outhustled for their current customer base by TAG-Heuer figures into Omega's thinking as well... Add into the pot for seasoning that Breitling has bumped Omega into third place in numbers of C.O.S.C. certifications for the first time last year and it's not a big surprise that Omega is scrambling for postion underneath the hoop (to use an atypical Basketball reference)...

What I don't understand is the apparent broad-based move of so many manufacturers upscale in light of the current world economy... As Jeff Huber pointed out recently we have been in a recession since March 2001, but in reality the economy of the U.S. and much of the world has been slowing down for much much longer. At least as long as the "Asian Contagion" in 1997... With the events of 11 September, the war(s) that are going on, the contraction of the Travel and tourist industries and people, in general just not spending as freely, it would appear that the march of the marques to higher ground is foolhearty at best.

I can understand increasing prices to maintain profitability. It used to be if you wanted a good quality mechanical chronograph for around $500 and usually under you went and bought yourself a Limes Outback... Now, about a year and a half later you will pay nearly double at $900 and it no longer has a displayback although it does now have a Sapphire crystal instead of the earlier mineral crystal... But these price increases were due to simple economics, not any desire to grab TAG-Heuer's market!

WISs for many years have pinned the "they use ETA's (and Valjoux, Lemania) ebauches" tag on Omega... They have longed for the "golden age" when Omega primarily used their own ebauches. Unfortunately, the good old days are likely gone forever because of simple economics. It's not practical for a company to routinely do the R&D and produce their own movements from scratch or even their eariler models except in extremely high end watches (I'm talking about Patek, A. Lange & Sohne, etc.)... Personally I've liked the every bit as good as the competition at half the price positioning of Omega... But it looks like that too will be a thing of the past. I'll miss that... I guess one should be careful of what they ask for... We all may just end up with it...

-- Chuck

My theory: Omega is going right after Rolex's price bracket...n/t

thanks, Thai.

My theory: Omega is going after Zenith and the threat from LVMH too>

With Zenith now available from authorized dealers in the US, TAG-Heuer (like Zenith, owned by LVMH) introducing Zenith movements in their new chronographs, as well as Rolex offering a new in-house movement in its Daytona, I think Omega understood that there was a need to offer a much higher grade automatic chronograph movement than those based on Valjoux calibers, let alone the ETA calibers with Dubois-Depraz chrono modules that animate the "Reduced" Speedmasters.

The Moon Watch has a relatively high-grade manual-wind movement and it is an acknowledged classic but that's not enough to compete, especially with a plastic crystal and no date on top of the manual winding.

In the $3000-6000 price range (MSRP), Zenith offers automatic winding, sapphire crystals, date and triple-date moonphase models and a variety of dials and bezels. The Rolex Daytona doesn't have a date, but it has the other features and even though it usually sells for more than retail due to its limited availability, its MSRP of $6000 is still well below the luxury/sport chronographs from Blancpain, Breguet, Audemars Piguet and Vacheron Constantin.

There is clearly a market for chronographs that may just be discovering Zenith, but they do know Rolex and they've already discovered Blancpain. They also know Omega but have decided that its automatic chronographs aren't anywhere near the level of the Daytona, let alone the Blancpain. They don't "get" the "old-fashioned virtues" of the Moon Watch but they DO "get" the Daytona or the Blancpain Flyback and wish they were more affordable.

VOILA: The Broad Arrow!

Recently Robert Jan Broer posted a short essay on “Why I don't like the Omega Speedmaster 'Broad Arrow'” and since his Omega Addict website is currently unavailable I have asked for and recieved permission to re-post it here...

-- Chuck

Why I don't like the Omega Speedmaster 'Broad Arrow' The Speedmaster Broad Arrow, the name was given to the watch because of the hands. In 1957, Omega's first Speedmaster had similar hands. This Speedmaster Broad Arrow is a tribute to the original Speedmaster (Professional). Master watchmakers (Piguet) and Omega designed a columnwheel chronograph movement for this Omega model. All this according to the official Omega Broad Arrow brochure. The brochure says that this watch is a tribute to the Speedmaster that went to the moon, every manned mission, the MIR etc. So not only a tribute for the 1957 model, but for almost every Speedmaster (Professional) made from 1957 till the last missions. There are a few things that I can't stand about this watch... First thing is, that the fellow who named this watch the 'Broad Arrow' should be fired. Broad Arrow is a term for military watches. The Omega Speedmaster Broad Arrow is definately not a military watch. Call it 'wide arrow' or something, not 'Broad Arrow'. Or just Speedmaster Automatic Chronometer. Second is that the dial is wack, for a Speedmaster 'tribute'. The Speedmaster Professional, the 'holy' Speedmaster, has the most readible dial ever. Very clear and no interferences on the dial, which means that hourmarkers aren't broken, subregisters aren't being crossed. The Speedmaster 'Broad Arrow', the 'tribute' watch to the 'holy' watch, has a date-window crossing the subregister on 6 o'clock. A weird non-functional cross in the subregister on 9 o'clock and hands that are getting in the way when reading the subregisters. But what irritates me the most, is that this watch is created because of demand for a Speedmaster Pro with date-window and automatic movement. People without any historic horological knowledge liked the Speedmaster Pro, but only if it has a date-window and automatic movement. And while we are busy anyway, let's add some metal hourmarkers as well. And the choice in getting it with a black dial, or with a cream dial. The 'holy' Speedmaster Pro is a watch that comes as-is. The Speedmaster Pro is pure. No (heavy) modifications should be made and certainly not dial-wise. The Speedmaster 'Broad Arrow' is a nice watch to look at, no doubt. But it IS NOT the Speedmaster Pro and certainly no tribute. It is just another Speedmaster model, like the Speedmaster Reduced, Speedmaster Racing, Speedmaster Split-Second/Rattrapante, Speedmaster Michael Schumacher etc. Of course, this opinion is 100% personal and I am sure that people will disagree with my statements. ;-) Regards, Robert-Jan Broer (The 'holy' Speedmaster Professional)

I hope you have found this summary of the thoughts of the posters of the Omega Forum to have been useful/interesting/informative...

-- Chuck